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Packaging for card decks
Packaging for card decks Posted on [21/11/2021] à 14:35

Is it necessary to add almost 5 x the weight in packaging for a couple of card decks.


2 a 120G decks at 240G and 1000G of packaging. They don't need much more than a padded small envelope and save 60-80% of weight and reduce the shipping cost to a reasonable rate.


Not even sure if cards would be VAT liable and as postage costs included in import duties for UK, Halving final costs would be good for us all.


Please consider using a different system for card decks.


Packaging for card decks Posted on [25/11/2021] à 14:39

Put in a support ticket but the answer missed the point. I understand shipping product needs to be protected BUT card decks only can easily be protected from damage, far easier than boxed games. Two decks certainly do not need a kilo of packaging and the shipping costs from 5 x their weight as opposed to double weight.


"Well we actually have to do it. Anything going outside France and especially outside EU is often really damaged during transport. We change this especially after cutomer care request including destroyed product after shipping."


To me this means they do not want to create a separate packaging option for card decks only. Many companies ship card decks from France to UK,RoS securely with far less packaging than the 1 kilo we have to use with DPG. Royal Mail offers std boxes far lighter plus some "packing nuts"/bubble wrap, fairly confident French postal services have the same options.


Packaging for card decks Posted on [26/11/2021] à 06:16

DPG apparently has experienced things contrary to your expected outcome, which is unfortunate. Perhaps you could provide the data of how many decks you have sent through the French postal system as a counter-point to that experience? If you have some counter-data, please mention it. Perhaps some lesson can be learned from the different approach that could help DPG out.


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Packaging for card decks Posted on [27/11/2021] à 18:39

No need to be snarky.


It's pretty obvious that you need different amounts and types of packing material to adequately protect a single deck of cards, vs a single punchboard, vs a ream of punchboards, vs a whole stack of storage boxes.

Punchboards can suffer crushing and other damage that cards would typically survive. This is obvious even from DPG's own packaging – decks of cards are just tossed in the box and are fine. Punchboards are packed tighter and still sometimes come with corner dings.


Obviously it would be possible to ship a deck with much less packaging than a large order. If you were pricing that out individually you could almost certainly find cheaper ways to ship a deck, even overseas.


The problem is probably that it makes the shipping cost too complicated to calculate. For it to be fully accurate they'd have to be accounting for the dimensions of each item and each box size and constraints about how things get stacked. By estimating a flat weight for the packaging they make it easy for you to understand how much you'll be charged for shipping, and whether you can sneak one more item into your order without bumping to the next shipping tier.


It means they probably over-charge a bit on shipping for some smaller orders, and under-charge on other orders. I'm sure lots of stores do the same thing. But for domestic shipping the cost is small, so the estimation error is small, and you don't tend to notice it. For international shipping the cost is higher, so the discrepancy is more obvious.


They could probably add some custom behavior for individual decks of cards if they wanted. But remember a few things:


* The individual decks differ in card count, which means both the size and weight vary slightly. (SoN conversion deck has 30 cards, Commonwealth deck has 64 cards and a mini punchboard, the others are in between.) So even just "accurate shipping for decks" is a bit complicated – how many of each exactly fit in an envelope of a certain size? What about the various combinations?


* These are mostly upgrade decks, probably available for a limited time. Eventually they'll go away, and any custom shipping stuff they add will have been ultimately pointless.


* It costs DPG some minimum amount of time and packing material and whatnot to prepare each order. They're willing to send small orders (there's no minimum order size), but it's more efficient for them to send out one order of ten items than to send out ten orders of one item. So there's not a lot of incentive from a business / profit perspective for them to spend resources trying to make it cheaper to place really tiny orders. It's much more efficient for them if you wait and add a deck of cards onto your next pledge manager, rather than ordering the cards on their own today.


* They're working on re-opening their US location, which will should drastically reduce the shipping costs to a good percentage of their customers. Obviously that won't help everybody, but it will help many. Spending resources on this will have a much bigger impact than making the shipping calculator more complicated would.


Packaging for card decks Posted on [27/11/2021] à 22:31

Wasn't being snarky being factual. They could implement a separate process even a manual process for decks. I suspect a bit of card inside a small padded envelope would suffice for 2 decks and a larger one for 3-6 decks or similar. From the support ticket reply they outsource to a separate company and I get the impression they have not even asked them if they had an alternative for a few decks of cards.


For your example commonwealth plus Son Conversion aprox 200gm post & packaging will cost 50% more than the goods and weigh 4+ times. Most of that cost is to ship the packaging.


Packaging for card decks Posted on [28/11/2021] à 01:28

"No need to be snarky" was directed at Nostradunwhich; not at you. Sorry if that wasn't clear.


They don't actually use 1000g of packaging for everything; that's just the estimate that's used for shipping costs. They use appropriately sized packaging. Your invoice should show you the actual weight of the package and the actual shipping cost paid. I don't know that it would actually be an envelope, but maybe a tiny box.


That's part of why people were pushing them to update the overall shipping estimates – it was clear that the estimates were too high based on the actual costs that showed up on invoices, even for packages that *did* use around 1000g of packaging.


After their recent update to those prices, the price should align much better for average packages. But as mentioned before, there would still be a discrepancy for extremely large or small orders.


Packaging for card decks Posted on [28/11/2021] à 05:31

I was not being snarky. I was pointing out that DPG has actual experience with years of shipping their decks to people around the world.


I still see nothing but assumptions from people who have not sent a lot of decks through the French system internationally, so do you have any data to back up your assumptions? If you do, then it could help DPG. But untested theories are not the same thing as science.


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Packaging for card decks Posted on [28/11/2021] à 19:04

You're trying to imply that if you're not a shipper, you're not allowed to discuss shipping costs, which is just absurd. I'm not trying to prescribe to DPG exactly how they should handle their shipping contracts, and I don't think starman is either.


The message in Starman's posts is essentially "As a consumer, the high cost of shipping for card decks makes me not want to buy them". Starman doesn't need shipping experience to know his own opinion. He's providing his opinion to DPG so that they can incorporate it into their planing, should they choose to.


My message is essentially "As a consumer, I understand that there are reasons for the high cost of shipping for card decks. I don't think it's easy to fix directly, but I think DPG is making good efforts where it makes sense." Starman may or may not find that useful in tempering his expectations. DPG may or may not find that opinion useful in their planning.


Your message has been "Your opinions are invalid because you don't ship things in France. Nothing can be improved until a customer who does ship things in France chimes in", which doesn't help anybody.


If DPG finds that decks don't sell as well as they hoped, now they have some input to look at; maybe it helps. If decks are selling really well already, maybe they'll ignore it. Either way it seems better to give the feedback constructively rather than remaining silently disgruntled.


Packaging for card decks Posted on [28/11/2021] à 20:30

Actually as a design/development engineer shipping small packages globally all over the world was a regular occurrence, to suppliers, manufacturers, customers , dealers etc. sometimes to one and sometimes to many and even to all.

All aspects of development need to be cost managed, it was my responsibility so I kept an eye on it and rotated amongst staff to help teach them the basics of how supply chains and accompanying documentation work, to stand them in good stead when containers of porotypes and finished product get shipped.(Big corporations rotate engineers through various area of the business from development to production to service and sales support.


As I said DPG replied they use a third party as an answer not we will consider,look into it or we looked at it and couldn't do it.


Packaging for card decks Posted on [28/11/2021] à 20:40

I was quoting from the basket prices at the payment stage and it showed the packaging/shipment weight and costs. In fact weight is less than 500gm(240gm) but shipping is €2.50 more than my zone on the new shipping, it kept the high estimate €18 at final payment stage for €12.32 decks. It was a test and really wanted some extra decks but not sure.


TBH they should have added the 2.0 decks to the BRO KS as most of us have SON/COMMENWEALTH, I asked they said no, yet they had addons in the PM. Seems a kick in the teeth to customers who have supported them. More than happy for it to ship with BRO, they also said no.


"These are mostly upgrade decks, probably available for a limited time. Eventually they'll go away, and any custom shipping stuff they add will have been ultimately pointless."


This maybe true but upgrade decks are about customer service especially

when you are changing a system a lot of customers has poured €100s into. The good will is worth the effort and not pointless, well I think it is even if they don't.


Packaging for card decks Posted on [29/11/2021] à 08:56

Quote from RansomOfThulcandra on [28/11/2021] à 19:04

You're trying to imply that if you're not a shipper, you're not allowed to discuss shipping costs, which is just absurd. I'm not trying to prescribe to DPG exactly how they should handle their shipping contracts, and I don't think starman is either.


The cost of other shipment options is not the core issue that DPG covered. Starman himself posted the response from DPG (emphasis added):


Quote from starman on [25/11/2021] à 14:39

"Well we actually have to do it. Anything going outside France and especially outside EU is often really damaged during transport. We change this especially after customer care request including destroyed product after shipping."


Those are his quotation marks, not mine.

So He was told by DPG that the shipping was changed due to losses. Cheaper ways to ship things are irrelevant if they are not safe enough.


The message in Starman's posts is essentially "As a consumer, the high cost of shipping for card decks makes me not want to buy them".


It was not just that, it was "DPG told me it was due to losses, but I think they really meant they were just not willing to find a cheaper way".


In fact, in the second post he stated it thus:


Quote from starman on [25/11/2021] à 14:39

To me this means they do not want to create a separate packaging option for card decks only.


His next post on the 27th stated:


They could implement a separate process even a manual process for decks.


That is a supposition that completely ignores DPG stated key factor, and his subsequent posts follow that same flawed premise.


So I simply keep asking about experience with the same system (shipping from France) and its losses with regard to cheaper shipping methods. Because if someone doesn't have any real experience with losses from that system, then speculation about alternate shipping methods fails to meet that first and most important criteria — minimal damage to the contents.


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Packaging for card decks Posted on [29/11/2021] à 10:03

Quote from starman on [28/11/2021] à 20:40

TBH they should have added the 2.0 decks to the BRO KS as most of us have SON/COMMENWEALTH, I asked they said no, yet they had addons in the PM. Seems a kick in the teeth to customers who have supported them. More than happy for it to ship with BRO, they also said no.


They said no if you were outside of the EU or US, because they had no cost effective way to get the decks to the KS fulfillment centers. The EU and US are supposed to have warehouses with the decks stored in them, because they are where DPG stores their stock for sale. Although the US location is not yet online, apparently.


Since you have dealt with all sorts of shipping issues, then surely you can understand the increase in cost to reship products multiple times? I am sure you also understand how much of an unknown (at the time of the KS pledging) shipping into the UK would have been to estimate for some not completely concrete time in the future (during KS fulfillment once the Solo system is finished development).


UK fulfillment was set up to come from a UK fulfillment center to try and minimize the cost for the backers from any tariffs or other costs. So no option for other products. Given your complaints about shipping costs from the EU warehouse to the UK for other products, it would seem to me to have been the right choice.


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Packaging for card decks Posted on [29/11/2021] à 10:15

Quoting my quote misses the point again, I suspect losses were before you offered decks of cards separate from games, they are a recent product and it seems DPG are lumping their shipping needs in with the boxed game/punchboards


How many damaged deck replacements were due to shipping? I had all Gametes and plenty of small punchboard options, none damaged and packaging was light but adequate.


I understand that DPG may experience issues with the boxed games and some expansions and likely due to weight and bending of low quantity punchboards (1-2), however I still say this is unlikely to apply to card packs.

That is why I asked for them to review it.


Even 4 decks of cards would not require that much packaging to stay safe.


Well just received 2 x KDM Legendary from the US $6 shipping in a padded jiffy bag.


I have received lots of games from France and Magazines e.g. NUTS! publishing.


I was asking DPG to review it not dismiss my request out 9f hand and then desperately defend the fact you do not need to look into it, that is not supporting customers but supporting your own position.


IMO Supporting customers when releasing a change for previous product in the latest releases e.g. BRO would have been to include the SON & Commonwealth update decks in that campaign as add-ons, most companies in this genre make a point of doing that, you are offering them when BRO was months off fulfilment, that is the opposite of good customer support.


Obviously DPG can do what they want but your replies and attacks against a loyal repeat customer are not going to elicit future loyalty.


My request: Please consider using a different system for packaging just card decks. FOLLOWED BY EXAMPLEAS IN MY OP.


"Well we actually have to do it. Anything going outside France and especially outside EU is often really damaged during transport. We change this especially after cutomer care request including destroyed product after shipping.

We're sorry but all that packaging are needed.

Have a good day"

Queried again.

"Sorry but we actually depends on Surfinmeeple for packaging and shipping method, which include following their methods"


I read this as we use a third party and have decided not to consider talking with them about it and though we pay them they make the decisions. Clearly they make a lot more money charging €18 for a few decks of cards than for a boxed game/big expansion and DVG can't he bothered to question them as they pass it on to us.

NOSTRADUNWHICH is just blindly defending a general policy which I do not dispute.


Packaging for card decks Posted on [29/11/2021] à 10:22

"UK fulfillment was set up to come from a UK fulfillment center to try and minimize the cost for the backers from any tariffs or other costs. So no option for other products. Given your complaints about shipping costs from the EU warehouse to the UK for other products, it would seem to have been the right choice."


What complaint about other products, just about decks only orders.


Packaging for card decks Posted on [29/11/2021] à 10:45

You continue to just project assumptions ("I suspect losses were before you offered decks separate from games") into the argument to make it fit your desired outcome. You have no real knowledge of what DPG has had to deal with with regard to shipping their materials, so you can assume anything you want. But since such projected assumptions are never-ending, I am done playing whack-a-mole.


BTW: You use of "you offered" is also an incorrect assumption. I am not an employee of DPG. I am just a volunteer who tried to help people with rules questions and correct erroneous assumptions.


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Packaging for card decks Posted on [29/11/2021] à 12:32

You turned this into far more than it was.


It is hardly hidden knowledge that the 2.0 update decks are recent additions is it? They did not exist before 2.0 and therefore DPG have very little experience if any of shipping them without the new packaging.


That is an inescapable fact.


They adopted the new shipping via Surfinmeeple because of losses and that was experience before they released 2.0 update decks in the webstore.(As per customer service responses from employees of DPG.


So it is a fact not an assumption. You are literally admitting you are making assumptions to defend against perceived assumptions which are facts.


My original point stands DPG have not considered my original request but dismisses it for whatever reason, you didn't need to aggressively defend that decision.


Not all feedback needs to be positive, critism can be constructive for future decisions, I am disappointed is not an assumption it is a fact.


Your constant deflection from my core issue is not helpful and is cringworthy at best.


Packaging for card decks Posted on [30/11/2021] à 10:09

Quote from starman on [27/11/2021] à 22:31

They could implement a separate process even a manual process for decks. I suspect a bit of card inside a small padded envelope would suffice for 2 decks and a larger one for 3-6 decks or similar.


Although you will likely dismiss this as a lie I am posting, but that would just be another incorrect assumption so I will bring it up anyway.


You are entirely wrong about your assumption here. I know this first hand because my DVG (NOT DPG, DVG) Warfighter WWII pledge was shipped in a tougher package than just a padded envelope, with layers of bubble-wrap around the decks. The envelope arrived at my house with a deck-sized hole in it and all 5 decks missing. That was US-only shipping without the French Cuisinart or the added rigor of international shipping added on. I was hardly the only one with that issue. DVG's packaging got much better for the later KS that I pledged, I know that for a fact.


Turns out blocks of dead tree are a bit tricky to ship.


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