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Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles
Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [27/09/2021] à 03:46

Hello everybody!


If you use the Level Up pack to give a tank commander (w/ Crew special ability) like Hanreich the "Fire on the Move" ability, how would that affect the tank? Would it only apply to the main gun, and not the MG (which has Fire on the Move -2)?


Or, would BOTH the Primary and the Secondary weapons receive the Fire on the Move -1 that Hanreich now has as a special ability? Since the wording in the Compendium says "the unit [w/ Crew] adds its special abilities to those of the vehicle," I assume that it might apply to both the main gun and the secondary mg, since they are both "part of the vehicle" and -1 fire on the move is better than -2 that the tank mg's have.


Similarly, if you were to give Hanreich the "Frightening Shot" special ability, would it affect both the MG and the the main gun, just like how v1 Otto had Frightening Shot for both weapons? That would make sense to me. What do you guys think?


Thanks for the help,

Alex


ASEF

Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [28/09/2021] à 13:58

Quote from ASEF on [27/09/2021] à 03:46

would BOTH the Primary and the Secondary weapons receive the Fire on the Move -1 that Hanreich now has as a special ability? Since the wording in the Compendium says "the unit [w/ Crew] adds its special abilities to those of the vehicle," I assume that it might apply to both the main gun and the secondary mg, since they are both "part of the vehicle" and -1 fire on the move is better than -2 that the tank mg's have.


Most of WW 2 tanks/panzers did not shoot with the turret gum while moving. Historically it could be an error to allow main guns of tanks to shoot… It is also renown that last models of USA and German tanks had also night vision devices and stabilizers that allowed them to shoot like that.

Said that, we have to use the rule of the firing mgs while moving. It usually gives a -2 to the shooter, could it be a tank, a jeep-like or semitracked or such, or infantry troops… But… Since such Power Up grant the said tank crewman/leader/driver such ability, to shoot and move, his malus becomes 0… To summarize, then, the tank itself can now move and shoot the mgs or secondary weapons without suffering any malus…


Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [28/09/2021] à 15:58

Quote from Ivan Boscaro on [28/09/2021] à 13:58

Most of WW 2 tanks/panzers did not shoot with the turret gum while moving. Historically it could be an error to allow main guns of tanks to shoot… It is also renown that last models of USA and German tanks had also night vision devices and stabilizers that allowed them to shoot like that.

Said that, we have to use the rule of the firing mgs while moving. It usually gives a -2 to the shooter, could it be a tank, a jeep-like or semitracked or such, or infantry troops… But… Since such Power Up grant the said tank crewman/leader/driver such ability, to shoot and move, his malus becomes 0… To summarize, then, the tank itself can now move and shoot the mgs or secondary weapons without suffering any malus…


Hi Ivan,


But what about Wittmann? He can fire his main gun on the move. As such, it might be possible that the main gun gets the fire on the move, and the mg gets the superior fire on the move as well. Or, it ONLY applies to the main gun OR the MG but I'm not too sure which is correct of those 3 possibilities.


Historically, the Sherman tanks had gyrostabilizers that allowed them to shoot effectively while moving, so it's not something that is impossible by any means. The elite aces like Wittmann and Ernst Barkmann w/ their crews were also able to shoot while on the move with some spectacular success. As such, I don't really think this is an error, but was totally intentional in the rules.


Thanks for your help!

Alex


ASEF

Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [28/09/2021] à 16:35

(…)


Hi Ivan,


But what about Wittmann? He can fire his main gun on the move. As such, it might be possible that the main gun gets the fire on the move, and the mg gets the superior fire on the move as well. Or, it ONLY applies to the main gun OR the MG but I'm not too sure which is correct of those 3 possibilities.


Historically, the Sherman tanks had gyrostabilizers that allowed them to shoot effectively while moving, so it's not something that is impossible by any means. The elite aces like Wittmann and Ernst Barkmann w/ their crews were also able to shoot while on the move with some spectacular success. As such, I don't really think this is an error, but was totally intentional in the rules.


Thanks for your help!

Alex

Hi… Read better what I wrote: I said that Shermans and other tanks/panzers (like later versions of the Tiger 1 & 2, used by Wittmann and the other ace mentioned) had stabilizers in the last months if the war and then were able to shoot while (relatively slowly compared to more modern ones, obviously)… I did not said the contrary!!! And here the HoN systems reproduces correctly sych chance. But, nonetheless, HoN/S system has the rule "Fire and move" which states that (usually) the tanks cannot fire the main gun if they move… And then it reproduces the average fact that in WW2 the tanks used to stop and fire or do the other way around!!! It is storically accurate then…

And, in the end, none prevents you to put more realism by adding house rules like I do, from time to time, when asked by fellow gamers or by the mission created, expecially if I play solo…

Returning to Wittmann: in HoN it uses Tiger 1 (as shown by the relative artwork); but we all know that he used and was issued the more "cool" and modern Tiger 2… And his recruitment tile also grants access to small arms, smokes, flak guns and blitzkrieg skill token… And more… And it is amazing for me!!! It is, because it permits me to recruit skill and weaponry that Tiger 2 and Wittmann himself had, such as the Shrapnel pistols, that Tiger crewnen could fire from the relative security of their hulls interior… As reported by Military History and Lindibeige on youtube and others, such as articles from wikipedia and similar…

Tiger and Tiger aces were sometimes given such "upgrade" because with the shifting of the favour of the Gods of war against the Reich, more and more often the panzers found themselves alone, fighting against an overwhelming enemy force. And small grenades, shrapnels cartridges or smoke nades could save the day to them… Allowing them to defend themselves even if german troops were not around or could not support such tanks… Expecially in the fights around the bocages!!!


I hope to have answered you. And you have no more doubts… At least, regarding this issue.


Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [28/09/2021] à 16:37

Quote from ASEF on [27/09/2021] à 03:46

Similarly, if you were to give Hanreich the "Frightening Shot" special ability, would it affect both the MG and the the main gun, just like how v1 Otto had Frightening Shot for both weapons? That would make sense to me. What do you guys think?


Frightening move is related to both the weapons?!? Are you sure about it?!? I recall, but maybe I am wrong, that it refers only to the main gun…


Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [28/09/2021] à 17:33

Quote from Ivan Boscaro on [28/09/2021] à 13:58

Most of WW 2 tanks/panzers did not shoot with the turret [gun] while moving. Historically it could be an error to allow main guns of tanks to shoot…


You might want to watch the movie Fury or Kelly's Heroes or any other Hollywood movie that features tanks. Well, maybe not Sahara.


HoN is WW2 as Hollywood portrayed it. So some tanks can shoot on the move.


That being said, and this is official, a Crew unit grants ONLY the Special Abilities printed on the token when the Crew is actively part of a vehicle. That does not include Customizations or other recruitment options.


Volunteer Moderator of the English Language Forums
Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [28/09/2021] à 19:33

Quote from Ivan Boscaro on [28/09/2021] à 16:35


Returning to Wittmann: in HoN it uses Tiger 1 (as shown by the relative artwork); but we all know that he used and was issued the more "cool" and modern Tiger 2…


Hi Ivan,


Wittmann was never issued the Tiger II "King Tiger." He died in his Tiger I E in Normandy.


Aside from that, thanks for your input and help!


Alex


ASEF

Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [28/09/2021] à 19:39

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [28/09/2021] à 17:33


Quote from Ivan Boscaro on [28/09/2021] à 13:58

Most of WW 2 tanks/panzers did not shoot with the turret [gun] while moving. Historically it could be an error to allow main guns of tanks to shoot…


You might want to watch the movie Fury or Kelly's Heroes or any other Hollywood movie that features tanks. Well, maybe not Sahara.


HoN is WW2 as Hollywood portrayed it. So some tanks can shoot on the move.


That being said, and this is official, a Crew unit grants ONLY the Special Abilities printed on the token when the Crew is actively part of a vehicle. That does not include Customizations or other recruitment options.



Hi Nostradunwhich,


That seems odd to me. The rule for Crew reads: "The unit adds its special abilities to those of the vehicle."


The rule for the hero customization special abilities read: "These customisations gift the character with new special abilities in addition to the ones it already has. They are considered to be printed on the character's counter and therefore lost if the unit is Destroyed. For the same reason, they cannot be used during an Alternate firing action."


Therefore, the custom special abilities added through the Level Up pack – since they are considered to be "printed on the character's counter" – should also be applied to the vehicle (so long as the hero is commanding the vehicle and has his inactive side up).


Is that a correct interpretation? Or, is it the case that the customizations are only printed on the "active side" of the Crew unit? That seems unfair, especially when tank commander heroes have such special abilities built-in to their units already. A Crew hero should be able to attain such special abilities as well. If they can't, it sort of defeats the whole purpose of the Level Up pack – especially for heroes with the "Crew" ability.


Thanks for the help as always,


Alex


ASEF

Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [28/09/2021] à 19:51

Quote from ASEF on [28/09/2021] à 19:39

…The rule for Crew reads: "The unit adds its special abilities to those of the vehicle."


The rule for the hero customization special abilities read: "These customisations gift the character with new special abilities in addition to the ones it already has. They are considered to be printed on the character's counter and therefore lost if the unit is Destroyed. For the same reason, they cannot be used during an Alternate firing action."


Therefore, the custom special abilities added through the Level Up pack – since they are considered to be "printed on the character's counter" – should also be applied to the vehicle (so long as the hero is commanding the vehicle and has his inactive side up).


Is that a correct interpretation?


Quote from Nostradunwhich on [28/09/2021] à 17:33

That being said, and this is official, a Crew unit grants ONLY the Special Abilities printed on the token when the Crew is actively part of a vehicle. That does not include Customizations or other recruitment options.


Volunteer Moderator of the English Language Forums
Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [29/09/2021] à 00:17

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [28/09/2021] à 19:51


Quote from Nostradunwhich on [28/09/2021] à 17:33

That being said, and this is official, a Crew unit grants ONLY the Special Abilities printed on the token when the Crew is actively part of a vehicle. That does not include Customizations or other recruitment options.



Thanks for updating this in the V2.0 Compendium Clarifications thread, Nostradunwhich!


ASEF

Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [03/10/2021] à 18:03

I have one more question about the Crew ability:


What if the Crew hero (Hanreich from the 1st SS for example) is also the commander of the army and has "Life Point"? Would he be able to use his Life Point marker for the tank he's commanding, or only for other units in his army? I understand that special abilities and gear aren't able to be used for the vehicle he is commanding, but what about Life Point?


Thanks for the help in advance.


Alex


ASEF

Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [03/10/2021] à 22:44

A life point is attached to one person, generally an Hero, here, to Heinrich.

This rule apply to all customizations and level-up add-ons (with a cloudy blue background).

So you can’t use it for a vehicle nether for anyone of the crew but the hero.


I don’t know any other Heinrich Hero with a “native” Life Point.


Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [04/10/2021] à 01:56

Quote from cdmdu on [03/10/2021] à 22:44

A life point is attached to one person, generally an Hero, here, to Heinrich.

This rule apply to all customizations and level-up add-ons (with a cloudy blue background).

So you can’t use it for a vehicle nether for anyone of the crew but the hero.


I don’t know any other Heinrich Hero with a “native” Life Point.


Hi cdmdu,


Here's the rule about the customizations: "If the customisation gives markers (such as grenades), their use is limited to the number of markers.

Customisations that give one or more markers can benefit to any unit in your army if they are placed on a Command tile."


Does that second part not mean that the Life Point attached to Hanreich – since he's a commander – would be able to benefit anyone in his army? I was thinking that to be the case at least when he was not commanding a tank.


Thanks for your help!

Alex


ASEF

Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [05/10/2021] à 04:58

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [28/09/2021] à 17:33


Quote from Ivan Boscaro on [28/09/2021] à 13:58

Most of WW 2 tanks/panzers did not shoot with the turret [gun] while moving. Historically it could be an error to allow main guns of tanks to shoot…


You might want to watch the movie Fury or Kelly's Heroes or any other Hollywood movie that features tanks. Well, maybe not Sahara.


HoN is WW2 as Hollywood portrayed it. So some tanks can shoot on the move.


That being said, and this is official, a Crew unit grants ONLY the Special Abilities printed on the token when the Crew is actively part of a vehicle. That does not include Customizations or other recruitment options.



You cannot reply to an historical fact by saying that in hollywood movies tanks shoot on the move… Study history… In WW2 only few late models of Shermans, Tigers and Soviet tanks could shoot EFFECTIVELY while moving…

Also, in american movies most of the tanks used to shoot them were 50s tanks retrofitted to resemble 40's tanks… Or were allied halftracks/tanks with german markings onto them, used to represent german weaponry… Just a title or two: the movie "Guns of Navarone" and The dirty dozen… Go and watch them, and tell me if I am wrong or correct, dude… And follow the youtube historical channel called "military history visualized". There are plentyful of similar channels or videos depicting the fact that tanks in WW2 very rarely could shoot on the move or do that EFFICIENTLY… Which is the main point: a thing is that your tank can shoot and move at the same time… Another one is: can your tank destroy other tanks while doing so?!?


Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [05/10/2021] à 09:41

Quote from Ivan Boscaro on [05/10/2021] à 04:58

You cannot reply to an historical fact by saying that in hollywood movies tanks shoot on the move…


I most certainly can, and for good reason. It is intent and design of the game itself.


From the Compendium, p.2 (bold added for emphasis)

Heroes of Normandie is a tactical scale strategy game set in World War II that uses the Heroes System, which is designed to enable you to create Hollywood-like epic battles on your tabletop.


From DPG's own product description for the original HoN box (link) which is itself a copy of the text on the back of the original game box.


Here, at Devil Pig Games, we don’t give a shit about wussies. We are only concerned by heroes, those you see in Hollywood Golden Age war movies : “A bridge too far”, “The longest day”, “The Dirty Dozen”, “Patton”, “Kelly’s heroes” and, more recently, “Saving Private Ryan”, “Band of Brothers” and “Inglorious Basterds”.

Here lies our inspiration, here is what we have to offer : blood and guts.


This is why the portraits of most of the historical figures are in fact the actors that portrayed them in The Longest Day, or A Bridge Too Far, or Kelly's Heroes. Because the Heroes System is about World War 2 as portrayed in action-oriented war movies.


It is why I keep warning you that HSTS is not a simulator — accuracy is not the main goal, heroic action is the main goal.


So yes, I can counter your argument about realism with Hollywood movie action sequences, because that movie action was the goal of the game in the first place.


Volunteer Moderator of the English Language Forums
Remember: If you are not willing to shell your own position you are not willing to win!

Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [07/10/2021] à 15:08

Citation de ASEF Le [04/10/2021] à 01:56


Hi cdmdu,


Here's the rule about the customizations: "If the customisation gives markers (such as grenades), their use is limited to the number of markers.

Customisations that give one or more markers can benefit to any unit in your army if they are placed on a Command tile."


Does that second part not mean that the Life Point attached to Hanreich – since he's a commander – would be able to benefit anyone in his army? I was thinking that to be the case at least when he was not commanding a tank.


Thanks for your help!

Alex



Well, you forgot some parts of the rules:


A Customization is a special recruitment option that can only be used by Characters.

A Character is the main counter of a Recruitment Tile (and not one given by an option), and may be a 'leading

role' or the Recruitment Tile's officer (indicated by a yellow outline).


Then, the second part "any unit in your army" is subject to the application of the first part :"if it is a Character". Also written in Compendium p.8


For vehicles, it's clear:


A vehicle never benefits from a Character's customization


Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [07/10/2021] à 17:18

Quote from cdmdu on [07/10/2021] à 15:08


Citation de ASEF Le [04/10/2021] à 01:56


Hi cdmdu,


Here's the rule about the customizations: "If the customisation gives markers (such as grenades), their use is limited to the number of markers.

Customisations that give one or more markers can benefit to any unit in your army if they are placed on a Command tile."


Does that second part not mean that the Life Point attached to Hanreich – since he's a commander – would be able to benefit anyone in his army? I was thinking that to be the case at least when he was not commanding a tank.


Thanks for your help!

Alex



Well, you forgot some parts of the rules:


A Customization is a special recruitment option that can only be used by Characters.

A Character is the main counter of a Recruitment Tile (and not one given by an option), and may be a 'leading

role' or the Recruitment Tile's officer (indicated by a yellow outline).


Then, the second part "any unit in your army" is subject to the application of the first part :"if it is a Character". Also written in Compendium p.8


For vehicles, it's clear:


A vehicle never benefits from a Character's customization



Hi cdmdu,


Thanks for the response.


Yes, for vehicles it is absolutely clear.


But I don't think that the customizations are only limited to heroes, I actually think that the "any unit in your army" overrides the customization rule about only being available for heroes. Why? Because the rule would be worded "any eligible (infantry) *hero* in your army" but it's not. Also, the new Fury War Story has the 12th SS Panzergrenadiere platoon with a white hero customization slot. That would suggest that non-heroes could still use hero customizations. That platoon is not considered to be a "heroic platoon" either. Of course, I might be wrong about this but I'm not too sure.


Thanks again for your help!


ASEF

Hero Customization Special Abilities & Vehicles Posted on [07/10/2021] à 23:16

Citation de ASEF Le [07/10/2021] à 17:18


But I don't think that the customizations are only limited to heroes, I actually think that the "any unit in your army" overrides the customization rule about only being available for heroes. Why? Because the rule would be worded "any eligible (infantry) *hero* in your army" but it's not. Also, the new Fury War Story has the 12th SS Panzergrenadiere platoon with a white hero customization slot. That would suggest that non-heroes could still use hero customizations. That platoon is not considered to be a "heroic platoon" either. Of course, I might be wrong about this but I'm not too sure.


Thanks again for your help!


What is in bold is true, it's the second part of the paragraph about Character:


A Character is the main counter of a Recruitment Tile (and not one given by an option), and may be a 'leading role' or the Recruitment Tile's officer (indicated by a yellow outline).


A character is a single one personn. You have a definition of a character in the Compendium p.8 and you have an entire paragraph in the new rules (2.0) p.6 :


2.3 HEROES & CHARACTERS

Heroes of Normandie is not only a strategy game. It is also a heroic adventure game, and Characters can play a significant role in your battles. Characters may be simple soldiers, famous heroes, or field leaders. Some Recruitment Tiles have “supporting role” Characters, such as an officer (yellow outline), as part of the combat group, while more powerful “leading role” Characters appear on their own Recruitment Tile. There is no game rule difference between the two types of Characters : they behave the same way during the game. Leading role Characters are those whose portrait is displayed on their Recruitment Tile. Supporting role Characters are usually part of a Recruitment Tile or Support Option’s combat group.


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