Quote from Nostradunwhich on [28/09/2021] à 20:04
I already explained the difference between V1 modifiers and V2 modifiers. Why are you ignoring that to try and draw an equivalence between the two options?
Quote from Nostradunwhich on [26/09/2021] à 22:53
In the first version of HoN, a bonus to an Assault roll was written as +2<assault icon>. In the V2 materials (HoS, HoNBRO), such "roll bonuses" have a green font, rather than the white font used by the abilities.
I'm not ignoring anything. If you read my posts in full, you would know that I understand how the Dagger works, but I fundamentally disagree that there should be a difference. My reasons are threefold:
1) Balance:
-Dagger cannot be used by unit with +2 Assault, like von Kamptz.
-Dagger cannot be used by ANYONE if you use Fuhrer's Fury, and so has no value when you use that card (when I think they should be able to be used together to grant a +4 Assault for a single unit, especially when you can use knives with Fuhrer's Fury).
-Dagger costs the same as Knife, yet in almost every instance is plainly inferior. Why?
A) Because a unit using the Knife ALWAYS gets the Knife's full +2 bonus REGARDLESS of anything else, whereas the utility of the Dagger is extremely limited or its use is inefficient. Fuhrer's Fury, Melee Expert and Melee Master all render the Dagger utterly useless/incompatible, whereas the Knife can be used (and with full benefit) – even with Fuhrer's Fury and other options.
B) if a unit has +1 Assault (like most heroes that can use the Dagger) the Dagger is outright inferior to the Knife, since it will only grant +1 to assault, bringing a +1 Assault hero to +2 FOR THE SAME COST as the Knife, which always imparts its full +2 bonus. It is plainly inefficient in almost every circumstance that it can actually be used. There is almost never a reason to bring a Dagger instead of a Knife, and if you want to upgrade someone like Ludwig or Julian Krause with melee Expert, the Dagger becomes literally useless.
-The Dagger CANNOT be used with the Knives, since as of now they are considered different to one another.
-Knives can be used together, but Daggers cannot be used together.
– The Dagger was clearly intended for Julian Krause (and it seems like it was intended for almost nobody else since it is inefficient or useless in almost every other instance, with the exception of the Kelly's Heroes/BR1 Ludwig w/ no assault ability and an upgrade slot). Again, adding Melee Expert to either of them renders the dagger incompatible. This shouldn't be the case when the knives are compatible and cost the same.
-The solution to such a balance problem shouldn't be "use the [other] better option." It should be corrected so that knives and daggers are equal options for the points and utility. This appears to be a fundamental disagreement between us, just like we fundamentally disagreed about the fairness of the Training Cards being shuffled into the main deck. And that's fine by me, I agree to disagree about some issues and that's when house rules come into play. Nonetheless, the Dagger remains useless in a number of instances, when the knives, the SS Dagger and all other melee weapons can be used, and I personally don't think that it's right.
2) Rules' Interpretation:
-SS Dagger is different to Dagger in name and colour of numberings only. It has the exact same "Assault +2" sequence, the only difference (besides the name) is the green numbering.
-There is no written rule in any of the rulebooks that says there is a difference between "Assault +2" and "+2 Assault." More importantly, there is no keyword or rules for either of the Daggers.
-There is a contradiction in the Compendium that states that melee weapons provide an "assault ability" in the hero customization section, when in the Recruitment Option description (where the rules for the Knife are) it says that the Knife provides a bonus. Quote from Compendium: "If a weapon gives the Assault special ability, it replaces the character's weapon if its bonus is higher." Underneath that text are images of both the Knife and the Dagger, side-by-side, without any clarification if there is a difference between them. This ambiguity lends itself to various interpretations, since again, there are no rules/keywords for the Dagger(s) at all.
-The Dagger – as of now – is the *only* weapon that grants the assault ability, and not a bonus. The Shovels, like the Knife, are described as providing a bonus, just like the Oar also provides a bonus. The old Dagger seems like an odd, unnecessary exception to the rest of the melee weapon options.
3) Common Sense
-A Knife is a Dagger, and an SS Dagger is a Dagger. A "Dagger" from the SS Panzer Division is easily thought of as an "SS Dagger" since it is *quite literally* an SS Dagger, from an SS expansion pack. Trying to differentiate Dagger and SS Dagger in such a way is confusing and, again, counterintuitive for players – especially when no written rules for either exist and when both the Daggers come as part of SS packs. Moreover, such a distinction between Daggers is not really needed, at least in my personal opinion. It complicates things unnecessarily.
-Since a Dagger is a type of fighting Knife, it would be logical to assume they are the same (the Dagger being a German version of the Knife). This is especially true when you remember that the "SS Dagger" is identical in function to the knives (+2 Assault bonus). Why would the Dagger be any different to the SS Dagger? It is very easy to misinterpret the unwritten rule about assault levels+bonuses and the order of the knife and the numbers/colour of the numbers. It's not about "realism" (that they are both daggers and so they should function the same – this doesn't matter so much). It's more about how many players could unknowingly interpret them as being the same with the absence of specific rules for the old dagger (especially when using pieces from the old and new expansions together).
Thanks for all your help, Nostradunwhich, although I think we may have reached a fundamental disagreement about the balance, which is totally fine and what house rules are for. I'm just trying to make a suggestion – if for nothing else than for the sake of house rules – to treat the old Dagger just like the SS Dagger, both types of Knives, and all other "melee weapons" (incl. Oar and Shovel) for the sake of consistency. That way, the Dagger always remains useful, like the Knife. I just think it's more fair and intuitive anyways – keeping track of the difference between the Dagger and all of the other melee weapons with their bonus seems like something that can be easily forgotten when playing. Even though such a change would make the Dagger less useful for heroes without any assault ability (since you only roll 1 die), it would at least always provide its full +2 Bonus, and can be used in conjunction with Fuhrer's Fury, Melee Expert or Melee Master – just like the other melee weapons. That way, it could also be used together with the new War Story SS Dagger as well. Another suggestion is that all melee weapons give *either* the assault ability (if the unit has no assault) or the full bonus (for those with an assault value). That way, they can always be used and are compatible with other options + Fuhrer's Fury, just like the Knives & SS Dagger. Again, I completely understand the difference between the Knife and Dagger as you describe it, I just don't think they should be different for a number of reasons, mostly related to balance and utility. No further assistance is needed. Please feel free to pass the idea along to the devs for their consideration if you so choose. I have everything I need to host my small tournament now and look forward to playing some HoN, rather than writing about it!
Thanks again,
Alex
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