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[Variant] Paratrooper/Commando Cards V2
Paratrooper/Commando Cards V2 Posted on [25/09/2021] à 02:18

Quote from rubasurex on [25/09/2021] à 01:12


Quote from ASEF on [23/09/2021] à 09:41

However, I do think I've found a problem with the suggestion. If you place an order on the Paratrooper cards, then you are essentially only able to use them offensively, during one of your own orders. How about when the enemy assaults *your* unit, which now defends? It has no Para card with an order on it – do you just use the cards defensively without needing an order, and only use the orders for offensive actions?


I didn’t say anything about putting an order token on the card. That would make no sense for the reasons you’ve pointed out as well as the fact that you don’t put order tokens on grenades or ammo to use those.


I think the original suggestion is the simplest and will probably work the best. The six cards are placed separately from your deck. After the first round, when drawing cards, you may draw one paratrooper/commando card in-place of one standard card. This card may then be played like any other card, offensively or defensively. No order token is required.


Hi rubasurex!


My bad – that was actually meant for Ivan's suggestion, not yours. I am editing my comment so that it correctly addresses Ivan (like I intended).


And I totally agree with you. I think the first idea is both the easiest to implement and makes the most sense from the gameplay perspective. What's more is that you can save your para cards for later turns, so that by turn 4 you can have multiple training cards ready for use. You can only draw up to one per turn, and there is good reason to save them too. It prevents the player from drawing multiple training cards in a single supply phase, it guarantees that the player will see his training cards, and at the same time there is the downside that for every training card drawn, you miss out on a potentially awesome standard deck card. Just as an added note, you shouldn't be forced to draw a training card each supply – only have the option to draw one if you feel that you might need it.


I will update the forum with some test results soon!


Alex


ASEF

Paratrooper/Commando Cards V2 Posted on [25/09/2021] à 16:33

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [14/09/2021] à 14:34

[Removed some stuff no longer relevant to discussion]


In the realm of "I paid for a card and it never came up…" there is a pretty big gulf between "but I still had an elite unit with some great special abilities" and "the artillery I paid for could never be used all game."


If paying for Paratrooper cards and not getting them bothers you that much, then do what many original HoN players did with the Aircraft and Artillery cards an don't pay for the recruitment option. The paratroopers are still pretty useful without them, so pretty much retain their thematic value and place in a TO&E without paying for the ability to shuffle in their cards.



What did such players you refer to in your answer? Did they use such cards/options as it is done today with Stalingrad set of rules (where you use planes and artillery as recruitment options instead of being cards)?


Paratrooper/Commando Cards V2 Posted on [25/09/2021] à 16:48

Quote from rubasurex on [25/09/2021] à 01:12


Quote from ASEF on [23/09/2021] à 09:41

However, I do think I've found a problem with the suggestion. If you place an order on the Paratrooper cards, then you are essentially only able to use them offensively, during one of your own orders. How about when the enemy assaults *your* unit, which now defends? It has no Para card with an order on it – do you just use the cards defensively without needing an order, and only use the orders for offensive actions?


I didn’t say anything about putting an order token on the card. That would make no sense for the reasons you’ve pointed out as well as the fact that you don’t put order tokens on grenades or ammo to use those.


I think the original suggestion is the simplest and will probably work the best. The six cards are placed separately from your deck. After the first round, when drawing cards, you may draw one paratrooper/commando card in-place of one standard card. This card may then be played like any other card, offensively or defensively. No order token is required.


We didn't say that you have to put order tokens onto paratrooper cards or commando cards… We said you can set them aside and activate/use them only when you activate/use the relative troops… Or you can just swap a card or two per turn coming from those sets, by just discarding or swapping your cards in the hand you actually have for one or two of them. If you do so just reshuffle your swapped "normal cards" into the deck, and keep playing as usual.


Paratrooper/Commando Cards V2 Posted on [25/09/2021] à 17:19

Quote from Ivan Boscaro on [25/09/2021] à 16:48


Quote from rubasurex on [25/09/2021] à 01:12


Quote from ASEF on [23/09/2021] à 09:41

However, I do think I've found a problem with the suggestion. If you place an order on the Paratrooper cards, then you are essentially only able to use them offensively, during one of your own orders. How about when the enemy assaults *your* unit, which now defends? It has no Para card with an order on it – do you just use the cards defensively without needing an order, and only use the orders for offensive actions?


I didn’t say anything about putting an order token on the card. That would make no sense for the reasons you’ve pointed out as well as the fact that you don’t put order tokens on grenades or ammo to use those.


I think the original suggestion is the simplest and will probably work the best. The six cards are placed separately from your deck. After the first round, when drawing cards, you may draw one paratrooper/commando card in-place of one standard card. This card may then be played like any other card, offensively or defensively. No order token is required.


We didn't say that you have to put order tokens onto paratrooper cards or commando cards… We said you can set them aside and activate/use them only when you activate/use the relative troops… Or you can just swap a card or two per turn coming from those sets, by just discarding or swapping your cards in the hand you actually have for one or two of them. If you do so just reshuffle your swapped "normal cards" into the deck, and keep playing as usual.


Ah, I think see what you meant when you wrote "you have to 'activate' by putting order tokens onto it." You mean that you need to use the cards for a unit that you are activating/using in the turn. You also mean that a unit who is being attacked (who does not necessarily need to have an order on it) can ALSO use the para cards if attacked. Am I understanding that correctly?


ASEF

Paratrooper/Commando Cards V2 Posted on [25/09/2021] à 17:22

Quote from ASEF on [23/09/2021] à 09:36


Quote from Ivan Boscaro on [21/09/2021] à 22:38


I solved that issue by allowing players to retain such cards separated from deck cards… And allowing them to choose each time the card they want to use in a way similar to the Stalingrad Stuka plane today… Which you have to "activate" by putting order tokens onto it… And / or allowing players that dislike this or want to put such cards intonthe deck, to reshuffle an X card back intonthe deck to go, choose and draw, a card coming from the set of paratroopers or artillery cards or such… To summerize: just use such cards like they were simple troops tokens and/or tokens like the Stuka plane or Artillery recruitment options tokens!!!


My apologies since I don't own HoS, but I thought you meant you had to activate the cards by putting order tokens onto [them] "like the Artillery recruitment options tokens" which DOES require you to put an order token on it to use since the Compendium changes.


ASEF

Paratrooper/Commando Cards V2 Posted on [25/09/2021] à 17:49

Quote from ASEF on [25/09/2021] à 17:22


Quote from ASEF on [23/09/2021] à 09:36


Quote from Ivan Boscaro on [21/09/2021] à 22:38


I solved that issue by allowing players to retain such cards separated from deck cards… And allowing them to choose each time the card they want to use in a way similar to the Stalingrad Stuka plane today… Which you have to "activate" by putting order tokens onto it… And / or allowing players that dislike this or want to put such cards intonthe deck, to reshuffle an X card back intonthe deck to go, choose and draw, a card coming from the set of paratroopers or artillery cards or such… To summerize: just use such cards like they were simple troops tokens and/or tokens like the Stuka plane or Artillery recruitment options tokens!!!


My apologies since I don't own HoS, but I thought you meant you had to activate the cards by putting order tokens onto [them] "like the Artillery recruitment options tokens" which DOES require you to put an order token on it to use since the Compendium changes.


Sorry… But the "activate" verb in my phrase was related to the Stuka recruitment option… Which is kept separated from other stuff… For being precise; I should have said "keep your spec ops cards or paratroopers cards SEPARATED from all the rest, BUY THEM as you do with plane/artillery support cards… USE them when you activate the related troops… Paratroops or Commandos they should be".

Hope that now it sounds better and my thought/idea is clearer.


Paratrooper/Commando Cards V2 Posted on [25/09/2021] à 22:09

Quote from Ivan Boscaro on [25/09/2021] à 17:49


Quote from ASEF on [25/09/2021] à 17:22


Quote from ASEF on [23/09/2021] à 09:36


Quote from Ivan Boscaro on [21/09/2021] à 22:38


I solved that issue by allowing players to retain such cards separated from deck cards… And allowing them to choose each time the card they want to use in a way similar to the Stalingrad Stuka plane today… Which you have to "activate" by putting order tokens onto it… And / or allowing players that dislike this or want to put such cards intonthe deck, to reshuffle an X card back intonthe deck to go, choose and draw, a card coming from the set of paratroopers or artillery cards or such… To summerize: just use such cards like they were simple troops tokens and/or tokens like the Stuka plane or Artillery recruitment options tokens!!!


My apologies since I don't own HoS, but I thought you meant you had to activate the cards by putting order tokens onto [them] "like the Artillery recruitment options tokens" which DOES require you to put an order token on it to use since the Compendium changes.


Sorry… But the "activate" verb in my phrase was related to the Stuka recruitment option… Which is kept separated from other stuff… For being precise; I should have said "keep your spec ops cards or paratroopers cards SEPARATED from all the rest, BUY THEM as you do with plane/artillery support cards… USE them when you activate the related troops… Paratroops or Commandos they should be".

Hope that now it sounds better and my thought/idea is clearer.


I got it, thanks for the clarification Ivan!


One more addition: you can use them when you activate eligible troops OR use them if eligible troops come under attack (in the case of assault cards, etc).


ASEF

Paratrooper/Commando Cards V2 Posted on [28/09/2021] à 23:45

Citation de ASEF Le [14/09/2021] à 15:03No one should be spending points on stuff that they can't use.


I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that. In this game you can spend lots of points on stuff you can't use ! Panzerschreck, sticky bomb or Bazooka when no vehicle are in front of you ; pioneers without anything to use ; minesweepers when no mines ; urban fighter capacity with no buildings, grenades without any melee confrontation ; mortars with 100% scattering of fire, …

This is part of the game : make a choice, accept the frustration.

With para cards you can have 6 of them before the end of the game… but you can also get 0, quite like a shoot after a dice roll.


Citation de ASEF Le [14/09/2021] à 15:03

4) Spending 25 points on artillery and not drawing the old artillery cards is EXACTLY the same as spending 25 points on Para cards and not drawing them. Again – you pay for the Para platoons separately from the cards. The fact that you can use paratroopers means nothing, since that is covered by their own platoon cost already. The cards are completely separated by cost.


Well, you can also use the new artillery token and because of scattering getting no result. But you paid for that.


Paratrooper/Commando Cards V2 Posted on [29/09/2021] à 00:06

Quote from cdmdu on [28/09/2021] à 23:45


Citation de ASEF Le [14/09/2021] à 15:03No one should be spending points on stuff that they can't use.


I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that. In this game you can spend lots of points on stuff you can't use ! Panzerschreck, sticky bomb or Bazooka when no vehicle are in front of you ; pioneers without anything to use ; minesweepers when no mines ; urban fighter capacity with no buildings, grenades without any melee confrontation ; mortars with 100% scattering of fire, …

This is part of the game : make a choice, accept the frustration.

With para cards you can have 6 of them before the end of the game… but you can also get 0, quite like a shoot after a dice roll.


Citation de ASEF Le [14/09/2021] à 15:03

4) Spending 25 points on artillery and not drawing the old artillery cards is EXACTLY the same as spending 25 points on Para cards and not drawing them. Again – you pay for the Para platoons separately from the cards. The fact that you can use paratroopers means nothing, since that is covered by their own platoon cost already. The cards are completely separated by cost.


Well, you can also use the new artillery token and because of scattering getting no result. But you paid for that.


Hi cdmdu,


I disagree with you. Wastage of points should be avoided as much as possible – whenever possible – for the best player experience. Anything to reduce or eliminate player "frustration" is a good thing. Games are supposed to be fun, not frustrating.


1) If you choose to use a specialist platoon option/hero, that was your choice. You knew that going into the game, during army selection.

2) If you miss a shooting roll, you at least got to *roll* for a chance to hit.

3) If you don't position your bazooka-man/team correctly, that is in part your own fault.

4) If you get no result from the artillery, you *at least* had the opportunity to ROLL for the CHANCE to hit.


Not drawing training cards is, on the other hand, totally out of players' control. The reason that the arty cards turned into tokens is because of this very problem in the first place. It was a more noticeable problem, given that the arty is much more expensive. Nonetheless, it remains to be the exact same issue. Again, at least with the arty tokens you are able to roll for your chance to hit. Imagine that you aren't even able to roll for arty at all, simply because you didn't draw the card. DPG recognized that as a clear problem. That's the problem we're talking about here.


Of course, everyone will have their own opinion, and for myself and others in the thread, house rules can be used to rectify this.


Thanks for your input though!


ASEF

Paratrooper/Commando Cards V2 Posted on [29/09/2021] à 11:29

Well, IMO, rolling a dice to obtain a random number or shuffling a deck of cards to randomly draw some of them, … it's the same thing. It's just a matter of probabilities … and luck!


Games are fun because frustrating. Otherwise, it's just the application of a mathematical law like a small horses game or Snakes and Ladders.


I have fun when I develop a strategy and I tremble because I don't know if it's great or ineffective!

This is my way to play to an Hollywood game like HoN. And I find the actual rules well balanced for this.


Paratrooper/Commando Cards V2 Posted on [29/09/2021] à 15:38

Quote from cdmdu on [29/09/2021] à 11:29

Well, IMO, rolling a dice to obtain a random number or shuffling a deck of cards to randomly draw some of them, … it's the same thing. It's just a matter of probabilities … and luck!


Games are fun because frustrating. Otherwise, it's just the application of a mathematical law like a small horses game or Snakes and Ladders.


I have fun when I develop a strategy and I tremble because I don't know if it's great or ineffective!

This is my way to play to an Hollywood game like HoN. And I find the actual rules well balanced for this.


I disagree with every one of your points for a number of reasons that I've already mentioned in this thread. You should probably read the entirety of the thread, including the draw probabilities that I have provided for the community.


It's one thing to *miss your roll* and another thing entirely *to never have the chance to roll at all because you never drew a card* (again, see my draw percentage post). They are NOT the same thing. The problem here – just like with the artillery – is that the Training cards are NOT free. They are extra upgrade options, just like Grenades, or Ammo, Camo, He Shells, etc. Those options can be used any time you want/need. And they should be – you payed extra for them. You can always use your grenades for the CHANCE to hit, but that doesn't mean that they WILL hit – in other words, you still deal with risk and chance, but the grenades are like all of the other options. The training cards are the ONLY options now (since the arty turned into tokens) in the game that you pay for and that get randomly shuffled into the deck. Based on your logic, it would be good for grenades, ammo, camo – any kind of equipment or upgrade – to be turned into a card to be shuffled into the deck. That is something I totally disagree with for a number of aforementioned reasons.


Furthermore, I totally disagree that "games are fun because [of frustration]." Games that are frustrating are oftentimes NOT fun, and are a big turnoff – especially for newer players – and get dropped because of said frustration. It's one thing to feel like you're unlucky because you used a training card to no effect and missed the roll, but it would be another level of frustration if you NEVER draw the training cards you paid for to begin with. Nobody said that the training cards are *guaranteed* to give you a successful roll/hit – just like the grenades that you have guaranteed access to when you need them. But – just like all other options – you should be able to have the chance to use all your cards throughout the game (they should at least be available), just like you can now use your artillery with the new tokens. Again, you're still dealing with hit probabilities and risk management, but at least you *get what you pay for.* The suggestion where you shuffle the training cards and keep them as a separate mini deck to be randomly drawn during the supply phase (if you so choose) also retains an extra level of randomness, since you don't know which training card you will pull. But at least you will have the chance to see the training cards you paid for throughout the game.


Again, thanks for your input, but I disagree with you entirely.


ASEF

Paratrooper/Commando Cards V2 Posted on [29/09/2021] à 21:43

Citation de ASEF Le [29/09/2021] à 15:38


Again, thanks for your input, but I disagree with you entirely.


I know that, and that's your choice. I've played this game for 6 years now, I participated in the drafting of the rules of the compendium, and I am happy with this game and with the current rules (except with the fragility of light vehicles). I don't want to convert you to my mind. You can play as you want with home rules, it's a free game in a free society.


I like the system where the para-cards option doesn't provide a perfectly definite bonus : sometimes it's cheaper than usual (you draw 6 cards with great bonus), sometimes it's more expensive (one or two cards only), but it's the game!

I have read your probabilities, they are not so bad. But I think you can improve the rules without removing the chance side: use the Compendium rules for artillery and Airstrike cards with your para-cards (Compendium p.63) : you will draw every of them before the 32th card of the deck.


[Variant] Paratrooper/Commando Cards V2 Posted on [29/09/2021] à 22:46

Quote from cdmdu on [29/09/2021] à 21:43


Citation de ASEF Le [29/09/2021] à 15:38


Again, thanks for your input, but I disagree with you entirely.


I know that, and that's your choice. I've played this game for 6 years now, I participated in the drafting of the rules of the compendium, and I am happy with this game and with the current rules (except with the fragility of light vehicles). I don't want to convert you to my mind. You can play as you want with home rules, it's a free game in a free society.


I like the system where the para-cards option doesn't provide a perfectly definite bonus : sometimes it's cheaper than usual (you draw 6 cards with great bonus), sometimes it's more expensive (one or two cards only), but it's the game!

I have read your probabilities, they are not so bad. But I think you can improve the rules without removing the chance side: use the Compendium rules for artillery and Airstrike cards with your para-cards (Compendium p.63) : you will draw every of them before the 32th card of the deck.


As I've said before on these forums, everyone has their own opinions and this is where house rules can be implemented to improve the game, or for those who would like to tweak some things. That you've drafted the Compendium, or have been a long-time player is great – but it doesn't change anything about my arguments on the matter, and I'm not trying to convince anybody in particular about the cards. It also doesn't change the fact that the Compendium itself was – in some places – rather ambiguous (even the final print). This is why we have the Compendium Clarifications thread.


I laid out the probabilities and my arguments about the training cards so that other people see what the current situation is regarding their use as per the RAW. Maybe they won't find them a good use of points (like me), and it may help them out. Or, they may implement house rules that seem to be in line with the other options in the game. Whether DPG considers this is entirely besides the question and not really my concern – I'm just posting based on my personal opinion as a player and customer. Why not share ideas and provide alternatives for a game that you love?


ASEF

[Variant] Paratrooper/Commando Cards V2 Posted on [29/09/2021] à 23:20

Citation de ASEF Le [29/09/2021] à 22:46

Why not share ideas and provide alternatives for a game that you love?


Of course you can.

So did I :

https://www.devil-pig-games.com/forum/?action=viewtopic&t=12930.0


[Variant] Paratrooper/Commando Cards V2 Posted on [29/09/2021] à 23:32

Quote from cdmdu on [29/09/2021] à 23:20


Citation de ASEF Le [29/09/2021] à 22:46

Why not share ideas and provide alternatives for a game that you love?


Of course you can.

So did I :

https://www.devil-pig-games.com/forum/?action=viewtopic&t=12930.0


That's fantastic, and what these forums are all about. I already assumed that to be the case since you've worked on the Compendium draft. Each players' input is meaningful.


ASEF

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