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Firing Action - Limited Range Rule
Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [22/03/2021] à 20:49

Can you please help me understand the rule regarding how Deep One units are judged with regard to a Limited Range Firing Icon of 0 (Such as Garth'Lyeh LR:ZERO). I gather that that means they have no ability to take a Firing Action shot at an opponent unit. Yes?


And since they are not illustrated with a gun/bow/tomahawk that makes sense. So, does the also mean they cannot take a shot with the BURST INTO ACTION card?


If I am to understand that correctly, then here's my next question.


Does the ruling of a unit without a Limited Range Icon such as the Rangers' Lucky Doc mean that he has no limit to his Firing Action? How can a Medic have a better range than Sgt. Carter? Or is he grabbing a rifle and just protecting himself suddenly?


Same goes for any hero like Albrecht Magnus as he also lacks a Limited Range Icon.


It is understood that Lucky Doc and Magnus lack an Assault Icon and also have a ZERO Assault modifier for infantry; so they would suffer a single Die roll to defend themselves at +0. But the ambiguity of the LR:ZERO icon on the Deep Ones makes this topic inconsistent. (Perhaps it's just a limit to what can be put on a unit's counter, and is supposed by the Hero's character?)


Thanks for your input, I searched the rules and can't quite see any further definitive clarification on this topic.


Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [23/03/2021] à 19:15

Quote from Ganymedepro on [22/03/2021] à 20:49

Deep One units … with … Limited Range Firing Icon of 0 (Such as Garth'Lyeh LR:ZERO). I gather that that means they have no ability to take a Firing Action shot at an opponent unit.


Correct.


So, does the also mean they cannot take a shot with the BURST INTO ACTION card?


Does Burst Into Action include text saying it removes the range limit?


Does the ruling of a unit without a Limited Range Icon such as the Rangers' Lucky Doc mean that he has no limit to his Firing Action? How can a Medic have a better range than Sgt. Carter? Or is he grabbing a rifle and just protecting himself suddenly?


Basically, yes. Limited Range for men equipped with firearms is showing the difference between pistols and rifles. Pistols (usually) have much shorter overall range, and certainly did during WW2.

Doc is not much of a shot with a +0 vs. Infantry 🙂


It is understood that Lucky Doc and Magnus lack an Assault Icon and also have a ZERO Assault modifier for infantry; so they would suffer a single Die roll to defend themselves at +0. But the ambiguity of the LR:ZERO icon on the Deep Ones makes this topic inconsistent. (Perhaps it's just a limit to what can be put on a unit's counter, and is supposed by the Hero's character?)


In what way is it inconsistent?

Doc has a Combat Value vs. Infantry of +0. That is his general combat ability. He is not a human being particularly skilled in combat, let us say it is not his calling.

The Deep Ones are not human to begin with, so any comparison is rather irrelevant. They are also skilled warriors with a +4 Combat Value vs. Infantry, a +2 Combat Value vs. Light Vehicles, and even a +1 Combat Value vs. Heavy Vehicles. They are well versed in combat, and are strong enough to damage a tank!


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Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [23/03/2021] à 23:32

Thanks for clarifying what the rules are intending.


Nothing on Burst into Action says that the Range Limit is ignored. Yet having 4 cards in the Deep Ones deck that offer a quick out of the norm turn Firing Action is rather odd when nearly half of the constituent members in the group have a Limited Range 0, granting them no bonus with the most common card in their deck.


I was looking for an explanation based upon what is intended in the game rules.


YET…


I'm not sure where the logic in the design is when the Lucky Medic or Magician Magnus have a chance at sharp shooting an opponent at Range 7 with some mysterious RIFLE they are apparently carrying and Sgt. Carter who has a gun that only shoots a Range of 6 has no chance whatsoever of hitting that same opponent out of Range.


That's an obvious flaw… anyone with knowledge of the US military realizes that a field Medic (Wearing a target on his helmet) is advised to never lift a Rifle on the field of battle.


And Magnus might have some sort of a Magic Missile he could fire off… if you want to go that route.


GOT IT… thanks for letting me understand that some of the characters defy logic in this game.


Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [24/03/2021] à 02:31

Quote from Ganymedepro on [23/03/2021] à 23:32

…thanks for letting me understand that some of the characters defy logic in this game.


Well, it IS a mythos game 🙂


I have not had a chance to track it down, but since Doc is a Ranger medic, he may well have had at least basic training. Technically he is not supposed to be armed when wearing the red cross badge (I think), but I do not recall the Mythos being signatories of the Geneva Conventions…


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Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [24/03/2021] à 16:35

Quote from Ganymedepro on [23/03/2021] à 23:32


I'm not sure where the logic in the design is when the Lucky Medic or Magician Magnus have a chance at sharp shooting an opponent at Range 7 with some mysterious RIFLE they are apparently carrying and Sgt. Carter who has a gun that only shoots a Range of 6 has no chance whatsoever of hitting that same opponent out of Range.


Design has to be considered as a whole, not just one stat


With +0 and no assault, Doc is going to get destroyed in close combat, a unit with +2 will kill him ~9 times out of 10 … (Win/Draw/Loss is 87%/7%/6%)


He has a fire action at +0 : since most units have 5/6 defense, he realistically has only 1/3 chance to hit a large unit in the open (Def 5), and no chance to ever hit a Hero in cover (Def 6 + 1) even if in range.


They could have cramped him some more by giving a gun with limited range rather than a rifle, but he's already useless enough in combat.


Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [24/03/2021] à 17:46

Maybe you’re expecting too much from Doc? He’s a medic and not a combat unit, you might just use him for his special ability and heal nearby units.


☠☠☠ Heroes of Belgium ☠☠☠

Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [24/03/2021] à 21:44

Being new to the game I was merely trying to figure out how it seemed a Medic and Mage had an actual shot with a rifle when the superstar sergeant Carter was out of Range.


It would have been better if Lucky Doc had a 5 movement. Then he'd be more able to utilize his specific skill, and if you ever watched the medics running on the battle field it was their primary activity. (Refer to the movie Hacksaw Ridge) Plus, being able to avoid opponents with more movement is more apt to keep him on the table than ever trying to fight.


Subtle design things like this really anchor more strategy in the game. Especially when you're utilizing lots of dice rolls that can really sabotage the best laid plans.


Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [24/03/2021] à 22:14

You bring up some very good game design points… but (and I don't mean this in a condescending way), do you play many wargames? Although the HSTS (the system used for all the Heroes and Shadow games) is far from a simulation of combat to be sure, it has its roots in that sort of game.


So Doc moves as fast as most character tokens, because that is how fast humans move. It would break the meta of the game to suddenly have him able to sprint faster than other humans to make his ability more effective. In a WW2 battlefield, it can take time for the medic to get first to one patient and then on to the other. As I type this, I have the Bastogne segments from Band of Brothers playing in my head 🙂


Rolling a bunch of dice to see who hits is random, but actually fairly accurate, especially for WW2. A lot more bullets were fired than men were wounded. The limited amount of mitigation again goes back to wargame roots. HSTS games have more mitigation than most, that is part of what makes it more "Cinematic" or "Heroic" than a straight wargame.


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Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [27/03/2021] à 15:43

In answer to your question regarding my experience with war games, I've played a wide variety of them. I would not label myself as specifically a war game expert. My background is deeper in card game design and board games. And as such I approach this from a slightly different perspective.


That being said, my point regarding Lucky Doc the Medic is that he's a poor choice to include in any army. Why?He's the same cost as Two Guns Bob, but has to orchestra numerous things to merit being on your squad. Unlike any infantry unit, he brings less to the table in regards to offensive fighting ability.(OBVIOUSLY) However, his role is to do something else for your squad, but it's not easy to operate in this rigid unit system.


The Medic would have to salvage at least 3 injured infantry to at least break even for his cost. Which also means you're utilizing an Order token to operate him and hence not using them for other advances on the opponent. So, you really need to salvage those injured infantry units to make him worthwhile.


This means the Medic is going to need to patrol the middle of the battle field in order to reach several of your injured squad members. (MAKING HIM AN EASY TARGET TO THE OPPONENT) Unless you have him shadow an advance squad that is bound to be hit. (Leaving the entire rest of the army out of range.)


Therefore, he's notably an under performer as the designers have granted him the Search special ability as a token extra. Plus the Mythos Hunter special ability which signals to the most noticeable area he needs a fix. To use his medical skill you will push him a lot which might cause a Stress token to surface on him given SoN is swamp ridden. BAM he then has a -2 Movement effect… and might like that Mythos Hunter ability. BINGO that's a helpful extra.


WHICH LEADS TO MY ORIGINAL COMMENT … why not boost his Movement to 5? Yeah it breaks the whole standard of the system. However, since he's a useless fighter, this ability to move further is merely representative of an actual Battalion having more then 1 Medic on the field. You could justify it too by adding the Limited Range: 0 which got me thinking he's able to shoot across the field easier than help a downed associate… to make up for the breaking of the movement 4 standard.


Food for thought, in a make believe representation of battle sometimes going outside the structure adds traits that better represent the feature that was originally intended. Not saying wreck the system, bend it to make it a better value option to add to your squad.


Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [28/03/2021] à 04:08

Excellent points.


Given we are talking about SoN, this is going to sound a bit odd, but I suppose it comes down to a difference in the importance of "simulation". Human troops just don't move faster, at least as a base. I will pre-empt you with your argument about Action Cards granting extra movement and admit that it is a valid point, but part of the HSTS "hook"?


As for the usefulness of the effect, you could well be right there as well. But keeping a critical unit alive can make a difference. How that value works out depends on the point of view of the purchaser 🙂


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Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [29/03/2021] à 18:58

The game is consistent with the limited range rule:

Shotguns have range 3

Pistols and sub-machine guns have range 4

Rifles/carbines have range 7

Sniper rifles ignore the long range restriction.


Sgt Carter in fact seems to be pretty good marksman as he is armed with a sub-machine gun but still has range 6.


This is supposed to be a joyful occasion. Lets not bicker and argue about who killed who.

Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [14/04/2021] à 19:05

So, one of my primary questions has still never been answered by the rules folks here.


The question was, if you play the Burst Into Action card with a unit that has a Firimg Range of 0 (like with the Deep Ones Hunters or Garth) would you actually be allowed a Firing roll? I ask because just prior to the Assault roll your unit is overlapping on the same space, hence being a Range of 0. It would be logical that the attacker has a very limited range attack of some sort, and make the use of a Burst Into Action more usable with certain units.


Yes/No?


Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [14/04/2021] à 19:52

Quote from Ganymedepro on [14/04/2021] à 19:05

So, one of my primary questions has still never been answered by the rules folks here.


Quote from Nostradunwhich on [23/03/2021] à 19:15


Quote from Ganymedepro on [22/03/2021] à 20:49

So, does the also mean they cannot take a shot with the BURST INTO ACTION card?


Does Burst Into Action include text saying it removes the range limit?


If the card does not specifically remove the range limit, then it still applies. Cards only break the rules in the specific ways they mention.


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Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [14/04/2021] à 20:51

So, the answer would be YES? If your unit is partially in the same space of your opponent's unit via the Assault … Being a range of 0… You're then allowed a Firing Action with Burst Into Action as it says at any time of your movement. It's the same as the Charge ability. What's the difference??? You don't seem to be saying NO… Or you don't know perhaps?


Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [14/04/2021] à 21:50

Quote from Ganymedepro on [14/04/2021] à 20:51

So, the answer would be YES? If your unit is partially in the same space of your opponent's unit via the Assault … Being a range of 0… You're then allowed a Firing Action with Burst Into Action as it says at any time of your movement. It's the same as the Charge ability. What's the difference??? You don't seem to be saying NO… Or you don't know perhaps?


Quote from Nostradunwhich on [23/03/2021] à 19:15


Quote from Ganymedepro on [22/03/2021] à 20:49

Deep One units … with … Limited Range Firing Icon of 0 (Such as Garth'Lyeh LR:ZERO). I gather that that means they have no ability to take a Firing Action shot at an opponent unit.


Correct.


I had thought this was clear from the limitations of Range 0 – no two belligerent units can ever occupy the same space. Firing is a physical impossibility. I cannot tell you, "you cannot shoot", because rather than creating an ability that clearly indicates that restriction, DPG instead chose to use the Limited Range mechanic to create a situation in which a shot can NEVER be made. While there is no functional difference between a unit that cannot make a firing action and a unit that has a Limited Range of 0, there is a semantic one.


There are a few misconceptions in your points so let me address them:

– An Assault is not a move. Although you declare an Assault plan before you begin a Move action, the Move ends at the space adjacent to the target unit. You must be adjacent to a unit to launch the actual assault.

Zone of Control prevents two enemy units from ever occupying the same space during a Move action, and a Move is the only time you can use Burst Into Action. You can use it at the end of the Move, but as stated, that is 1 space away. Just because you declared an Assault before your Move does not mean you can ignore ZoC during a Move.

– While the Assault rules state you overlap a unit to signify which units are engaged in the assault, but even then your unit remains in the space from which it launched the Assault. Once the assault resolves, there may be a Forced Move of one of the units at that point, but even in that case the units never overlap. Furthermore, since an Assault is not a Move, you cannot use Burst Into Action in an Assault.


I will bring up a few points you did not yet cover:

– Belligerents cannot occupy the same vehicle using Transport

Civilians do stack, but they are not belligerents. You may only take a Firing Action on an enemy unit.

– Not even HoBR's Teleportation allows two units to be in the same space. They can try to Assault into the space, but that uses the normal Assault rules.


TL;DR: To summarize, there is no situation in which you can force two units to occupy the same space that will allow a unit with a Limited Range of 0 to be able to make a Firing Action on an enemy unit.


I do not recall if you have the Compendium, but if you do not then I hightly recommend you grab the Heroes of Stalingrad rules available for download here in the HoS section of the Downloads. Use that for core mechanics because the SoN rules are not as tightly written. You will still need the SoN rules in that case to deal with the Mythos-specific stuff like spells and terror, but for core mechanics like shooting, assault, etc. the HoS book will help.


Finally, on a personal note, if I don't know the answer to a rule, I say as much.


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Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [14/04/2021] à 22:32

OK! Much better clarification than your previous reply, thank you.


The Firing Range 0 and some variances left us wondering if it was a loophole. Your explanation resolves any ambiguity as to what was being thought.


Went and got HoS rules previously to clarify a few things, as you indicated it's much tighter in the edit.


Firing Action - Limited Range Rule Posted on [14/04/2021] à 22:52

Quote from Ganymedepro on [14/04/2021] à 22:32

Went and got HoS rules previously to clarify a few things, as you indicated it's much tighter in the edit.


I think you mentioned that before, sorry for repeating the point. It is just my default recommendation.


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