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Shootas: WHY? (strategy)
Shootas: WHY? (strategy) Posted on [21/12/2020] à 12:08

Shootas are not worth under every POV I could think of.


Want to shoot reliably?


– Teef breakas (80) + Boss nob (50) + Ammo runts (20) = tot 150 pts in order to be able to shoot at +2 against infantry ("reliably"…pffff)


– lootas (105) + (basic tile, like Green riders: 80) = tot 185 pts that allow you to hit with a reliable +3 against EVERYTHING!


In addition to this you have a major order efficiency: 1 order allows you to fire twice (at different targets) with an unwounded loota. The only thing that shootas bring to the table are more shooting units, more units that you won't have and Order for though: either you invest all your orders to have them fire at +2 (also consider that your poor ammo runt can't be everywhere on the map!), or you better use your orders for something else (any other more efficient way to spend orders)…at this point shootas are only running orks during the Supply phase.

And if you want running orks, then you better have Sluggas so they can do something in melee later.

Even adding a big shoota to the shootas list to get equal points does not change things: every order spent on a loota is a better spent order.


My conclusion? They are overpriced, or they lack a skill like Suppressive fire…


So, what is your experience with shootas? How do you use them? Why them and not other units?
Shootas: WHY? (strategy) Posted on [21/12/2020] à 12:56

I also think Shootas are never worth it — their +1 against infantry is just too weak against Space Marines or any unit in cover. Even if they had Suppressive Fire, I still feel they wouldn't be worth it.


I suppose one good use for Shootas is to force the Space Marine player to stay in cover. If you have Shootas and Ammo x3, it becomes dangerous for any Space Marine to be in the open (especially if you have the "Overwatch" card). Of course, this also applies to Lootas and anything else with proper Dakka, but Shootas are the cheapest option to cover multiple lines of fire.
Shootas: WHY? (strategy) Posted on [21/12/2020] à 23:07

Quote from GRAAK on [21/12/2020] à 12:08

Shootas are not worth under every POV I could think of.


Want to shoot reliably?


– Teef breakas (80) + Boss nob (50) + Ammo runts (20) = tot 150 pts in order to be able to shoot at +2 against infantry ("reliably"…pffff)


– lootas (105) + (basic tile, like Green riders: 80) = tot 185 pts that allow you to hit with a reliable +3 against EVERYTHING!


As compared to what? What is the cost of the Shootas unit you are comparing this against? Because last I checked Teef Breakas ARE Shootas.

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Shootas: WHY? (strategy) Posted on [21/12/2020] à 23:29

Don't forget units can support other units assaulting giving a +1 bonus so a group of low cost ork shootas can be very helpful in assault combat and by looking at the units shootas have +1 against infantry and a +2 assault making them have a +3 against marines in assault combat. basically an even assault fight for a unit that is much less points to put on the battlefield.
Shootas: WHY? (strategy) Posted on [22/12/2020] à 00:48

Exactly, don’t use low-cost Orks as shooting units, use them in massive waves of assaulting bullies. Block the retreat of assaulted Ultra Marines with Zone of Control and watch how the blue soldiers fall apart fairly easy… if all goes to play that is. 😈


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Shootas: WHY? (strategy) Posted on [22/12/2020] à 07:04

Quote from Nostradunwhich on [21/12/2020] à 23:07

Because last I checked Teef Breakas ARE Shootas.


I think that's GRAAK's point — A mob of Teef Breakas + Ammo Runts costs 100 points, but for 5 more points you can get the Lootas.
Shootas: WHY? (strategy) Posted on [22/12/2020] à 07:36

Quote from Quickle on [22/12/2020] à 07:04


Quote from Nostradunwhich on [21/12/2020] à 23:07

Because last I checked Teef Breakas ARE Shootas.


I think that's GRAAK's point — A mob of Teef Breakas + Ammo Runts costs 100 points, but for 5 more points you can get the Lootas.


This, thanks!


My point is:

If you choose shootas to shoot you are wasting points, even if you buff them there are better options.

If instead you choose shootas to run forward and support in melee…then why you don't take sluggas instead?


And even if marines give you the chance to shot with a clear LoSight the amount of orders you waste to activate their abisnmal "+1" shot is not a wise choice.

Lootas need half the orders and also get "+3" against everything.


Actually shootas sit in a little strategical niche that is overshadowed by by-far more efficient units (sluggas and lootas).

WIthout a fire-on-the-move, suppressive fire, or a point discount they are simply not worth it.


Point-cost-wise, abilities-wise and order-efficiency-wise I see no reason to take them instead of other units.
Shootas: WHY? (strategy) Posted on [22/12/2020] à 08:28

Quote from Quickle on [21/12/2020] à 12:56

I also think Shootas are never worth it — their +1 against infantry is just too weak against Space Marines or any unit in cover. Even if they had Suppressive Fire, I still feel they wouldn't be worth it.


I suppose one good use for Shootas is to force the Space Marine player to stay in cover. If you have Shootas and Ammo x3, it becomes dangerous for any Space Marine to be in the open (especially if you have the "Overwatch" card). Of course, this also applies to Lootas and anything else with proper Dakka, but Shootas are the cheapest option to cover multiple lines of fire.


Yours are good points I think! Saturating a map with the menace of a ammo-buffed shootas lucky shot is probably a role they could play.

Regarding the chance to wound marines, I agree with you. Lootas overshadowed even the most buffed shootas.

Probably shootas will have a better chance against less resilient troops, like Eldar&Tyranids (pray the Emperor to make them exist!!!!).
Shootas: WHY? (strategy) Posted on [22/12/2020] à 23:10

Quote from GRAAK on [22/12/2020] à 07:36

Without a fire-on-the-move, suppressive fire, or a point discount they are simply not worth it.


I really like the idea of giving Shootas "Fire On The Move" (with no penalty)! I've been toying with the idea of giving Shootas "Suppression", but I think "Fire On The Move" is more useful and thematic. In Warhammer 40K, Shootas have "Assault 2" guns which means they can shoot to full effect while on the move. I wonder if "Fire On The Move" would make Shootas too powerful (for their cost) against "softer" targets like Tyranids, Eldar, or Imperial Guard (i.e. any faction from Heroes of Normandie).


I really wonder why DPG gave the Orks only +1 vs Infantry instead of +2. Yes, Orks are very inaccurate, but also they fire large caliber rounds with a high rate of fire. I guess DPG wanted to highlight the difference between Space Marines and Orks for gameplay/theme reasons.


Quote from GRAAK on [22/12/2020] à 08:28

Probably shootas will have a better chance against less resilient troops, like Eldar&Tyranids (pray the Emperor to make them exist!!!!).


This is true, but as long as the Eldar/Tyranid is hiding in cover, they are still fairly safe from the Shootas poor +1 bonus.
Shootas: WHY? (strategy) Posted on [23/12/2020] à 10:05

I guess it is hard to represent ork shooting well within the game's rules. It is supposed to be chaotic and wildly inaccurate but so large in number that inevitably something will hit. In the tabletop game orks generally hit on 5 or 6 but a 6 gives you an extra hit roll and the base troops are cheap enough to run in big 30 man mobs. Though I guess people generally still prefer running them as mostly slugga & choppa for the extra melee attacks.


Given the order system it is hard to represent a large amount of inaccurate shots. You could give them a low hit bonus but have activated units roll more dice and pick the highest.

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